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Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class

Navy_Pete

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Huh, being reported that AUS canceled the sub contract 'for convenience', which is contract terms for 'we're about to pay through the nose to get out of the contract'. Think EH 101.

Stuff like that has ripple on effects; we had to include all kinds of guarantees in our big contracts as a result because people (rightly) don't trust the governments not to do stupid things.
 

OldSolduer

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When I said ‘our favour’ I was referring to the collective west 😉 KevinB is right, baby steps will be needed when transitioning from a non-nuclear navy to a nuclear one.
You won't have to worry about transitioning. My point being that any GoC - no matter what political stripe - will ever propose it. There are too many "no nukes" environmentalists, peace activists and those in the employ of a foreign nation.

We are also influenced by a nation who appears to be friendly but in reality want this nation - Canada - for its natural resources because that nation cannot sustain itself without our resources.
 

lenaitch

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You won't have to worry about transitioning. My point being that any GoC - no matter what political stripe - will ever propose it. There are too many "no nukes" environmentalists, peace activists and those in the employ of a foreign nation.

We are also influenced by a nation who appears to be friendly but in reality want this nation - Canada - for its natural resources because that nation cannot sustain itself without our resources.

I'm not sure I agree with the natural resources angle being the prime motivator but, rather, the desire to have a weak but compliant ally/neighbour who buys their stuff. And we have been historically and consistently happy in that role.
 

Czech_pivo

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I'm not sure I agree with the natural resources angle being the prime motivator but, rather, the desire to have a weak but compliant ally/neighbour who buys their stuff. And we have been historically and consistently happy in that role.
You mean, to be crude but to the point, being their bitch?
 

OldSolduer

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You mean, to be crude but to the point, being their bitch?
I think you've hit a nail directly on the head. Come to think of it what is preventing "that nation" from sending their agents to us then those agent slipping across the border illegally into the USA? Just my paranoid thinking.....
 

KevinB

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You won't have to worry about transitioning. My point being that any GoC - no matter what political stripe - will ever propose it. There are too many "no nukes" environmentalists, peace activists and those in the employ of a foreign nation.

We are also influenced by a nation who appears to be friendly but in reality want this nation - Canada - for its natural resources because that nation cannot sustain itself without our resources.
I'm not sure I agree with the natural resources angle being the prime motivator but, rather, the desire to have a weak but compliant ally/neighbour who buys their stuff. And we have been historically and consistently happy in that role.
I'm not sure you are both talking about the same nation...
 

CBH99

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You won't have to worry about transitioning. My point being that any GoC - no matter what political stripe - will ever propose it. There are too many "no nukes" environmentalists, peace activists and those in the employ of a foreign nation.

We are also influenced by a nation who appears to be friendly but in reality want this nation - Canada - for its natural resources because that nation cannot sustain itself without our resources.
Totally agreed. This is an issue I don’t think any of us will see seriously discussed in our lifetimes.
 

CBH99

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Hey Defence just found 14.2M more in the budget
The fact that we pay foreign aid money to China HAS to be criminal somehow. Or at least against whatever formulas & rules are used when calculating who gets that money, and how much.

In a sad yet I predict true course, I doubt any media outlets like CBC will raise this issue or question the government on it. And why is that…???

If Justin wants to prove he isn’t as cozy with China as he consistently appears to be, this would be a good place to start.

China wouldn’t even an argument, we could easily say it isn’t intended to antagonize, and they’d lose face pretty quickly if they made a stink of it.
 

CBH99

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You won't have to worry about transitioning. My point being that any GoC - no matter what political stripe - will ever propose it. There are too many "no nukes" environmentalists, peace activists and those in the employ of a foreign nation.
Agreed. Heck, I’m reminded of that CBC ‘Special’ about CSOR training/mentoring activities in Africa.

During the quick tour around a Griffon, the reporter asked like 3 times in a row “What would this be used for?” when they got to the .50 cal mounted for the door gunner.

The crew member said all 3 times “that would be used for self defense, if we happen to be shot at…”. And all 3 times, it was like her brain couldn’t actually absorb what was being said to her.

He literally had to dumb it down for her before moving on. Dumbing down ‘What does a machine gun do?’

I feel like she is a pretty accurate example of the average Canadian and their perception of anything military related.

On that note, nuclear submarines are out of the question. And that’s been discussed elsewhere many times, with probably good reasons we aren’t ready to even start taking that step yet.


My submarine based questions in regards to a campaign in the SCS are — are modern non-nuc boats effective in a campaign in the SCS?

Would having a boat or two actively engaged in that conflict be helpful or useful in prosecuting targets?

If conflict erupted with China in the SCS, how much could our submarine fleet contribute to the fight? (Realistically)

Could we still show up to the BBQ, and bring something other than coleslaw??
 

suffolkowner

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I don't think we need to be active in the SCS necessarily. Having assets available at all would ease the risk for the US in moving their assets around
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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To answer your question, CBH99, you have to consider what modern non-nuc submarines are good at: ASW barrier operations. There is nothing better than a non-nuc boat loitering at slow speed to impersonate a hole in the water. That is why they are good at barrier ops: that is loitering near the centre of a defined corridor where other submarines who want to break out must pass. In such scenario, the "classic" boat has an advantage on the nuke as a hunter.

There are countless such areas either in or around the SCS, so such submarines could contribute very nicely to both prevention of break out from the CSC or in guarding the flank of the nuke boats hunting area. Such mission and contribution is not insignificant.

But for Canada to contribute that effect, we would have to forward base the subs somewhere else for the duration, likely in Northern Australia.
 

CBH99

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To answer your question, CBH99, you have to consider what modern non-nuc submarines are good at: ASW barrier operations. There is nothing better than a non-nuc boat loitering at slow speed to impersonate a hole in the water. That is why they are good at barrier ops: that is loitering near the centre of a defined corridor where other submarines who want to break out must pass. In such scenario, the "classic" boat has an advantage on the nuke as a hunter.

There are countless such areas either in or around the SCS, so such submarines could contribute very nicely to both prevention of break out from the CSC or in guarding the flank of the nuke boats hunting area. Such mission and contribution is not insignificant.

But for Canada to contribute that effect, we would have to forward base the subs somewhere else for the duration, likely in Northern Australia.
I learned something new about submarine warfare from every single line of your post here. Thanks OGBT.
 

KevinB

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CjqCDdi.jpg


If I was going to base SSK's - I would look to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines or Singapore, North Australia is a bit of a hike, and correct me if I am wrong, but the Victoria's would be stretching it to get to a choke point and then patrol - while the other locations are actual choke points.

Which is why after all the Aussies are going to a SSN...
 
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