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Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

Remius

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Dimsum said:
That...uh, seems like a lot of people.

Seems like it but...

I know in the Army a lot of people complete the test put the data is not input into the system until later if at all in a lot of cases.  So maybe that accounts for it.  It wouldn't shock me.
 

stoker dave

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Humphrey Bogart said:
Apparently 3500 sailors didn't bother doing the FORCE Test last year and are expired. 
Some decades ago I was tasked with arranging fitness testing for everyone in a small (25 person) group in NDHQ.  The first person I approached was the senior officer of the group.  I asked him when would be convenient for him to take his fitness test and that I would schedule it.

His response was (to the effect) "I am not taking any stupid fitness test." 

I decided that if he wasn't taking the test, no one was.  This guy was a Navy Commander, by the way.  So I scheduled no one in the group for the test. 

If you can't lead the troops to a fitness test, how can you lead them in battle? (Yeah, that is a bit sarcastic, but meant to be funny - please take my little anecdote for what it is meant to be.)
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Just quoting the RCN Chief's SITREP.  I agree the number seems high but PSP logs all fitness scores electronically now so the number has to be coming from somewhere.
 

dapaterson

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PRes (at least Army) dodged the PSP empire build and does it in house on paper, then inputs into HRMS. 

I suspect the 3500 includes Res F NES, ED&T, and Reg F on terminal leave.

But it's still a big number...

Mind you, last time I looked at the MCS report, the number without a valid fitness profile was high across the board.

The CAF still lacks a culture of fitness and wellness; we run cheap bars, stores selling smokes and energy drinks, and messes offer fried fatty foods and sugar drinks.  The science us out there, we just don't want to pay attention.
 

Pusser

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dapaterson said:
The CAF still lacks a culture of fitness and wellness; we run cheap bars, stores selling smokes and energy drinks, and messes offer fried fatty foods and sugar drinks.  The science us out there, we just don't want to pay attention.

I agree that the CAF lacks a culture of fitness, but I don't agree with the solution I think you're implying.  There is nothing wrong with cheap bars, fatty foods and sugary drinks.  All things are fine in moderation, except smoking, that's just plain stupid. 

Where we lack a culture of fitness is really where we make it difficult for people to achieve and maintain a level of fitness.  We run the crap out of people on basic training, but then we stop.  Everybody should have a basic daily exercise routine.  There is a CANFORGEN that states personnel are to be given time during working hours to exercise, but many don't take advantage and there are still supervisors out there that fight it ("we're too busy" - BS! - NO ONE is too busy to train for a military requirement).  We have base parking committees that spend hours discussing parking issues, but the first time some extra space is needed, all the bicycle racks are removed.  In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles!  Without laundry or at least drying facilities, what are people supposed to do?  All the promotional material for the Carling campus brags about the bicycle parking, but there is still a dearth of change rooms and again, no place to hang wet gear.

All in all, we talk a good game about promoting individual fitness, but as a whole, we suck at supporting it, the Combat Arms perhaps excepted.
 

FSTO

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Pusser said:
I agree that the CAF lacks a culture of fitness, but I don't agree with the solution I think you're implying.  There is nothing wrong with cheap bars, fatty foods and sugary drinks.  All things are fine in moderation, except smoking, that's just plain stupid. 

Where we lack a culture of fitness is really where we make it difficult for people to achieve and maintain a level of fitness.  We run the crap out of people on basic training, but then we stop.  Everybody should have a basic daily exercise routine.  There is a CANFORGEN that states personnel are to be given time during working hours to exercise, but many don't take advantage and there are still supervisors out there that fight it ("we're too busy" - BS! - NO ONE is too busy to train for a military requirement).  We have base parking committees that spend hours discussing parking issues, but the first time some extra space is needed, all the bicycle racks are removed.  In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles!  Without laundry or at least drying facilities, what are people supposed to do?  All the promotional material for the Carling campus brags about the bicycle parking, but there is still a dearth of change rooms and again, no place to hang wet gear.

All in all, we talk a good game about promoting individual fitness, but as a whole, we suck at supporting it, the Combat Arms perhaps excepted.

With all the other issues at Carling, I'm sure they could take one space per floor to make it into a "Commuter change room" you'd still have to shower down at the gym but at least you could hang your gear somewhere away from your work space.
 

ModlrMike

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Hmmmmmm... I wonder if NAVRES would approve an MR for an InBody 570?
 

Humphrey Bogart

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FSTO said:
With all the other issues at Carling, I'm sure they could take one space per floor to make it into a "Commuter change room" you'd still have to shower down at the gym but at least you could hang your gear somewhere away from your work space.

If it makes you all feel any better, I change in a smelly common bathroom that hasn't been updated since 1930 and I bike everyday.  I would get changed in the office like I would do in the field but someone would make a complaint probably  ;D
 

mariomike

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Pusser said:
In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles! 

This is a naïve question. But, I never worked in a cubicle. Do they not have locker rooms?
 

CountDC

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Eye In The Sky said:
FWIW...the absolute longest parade practice I've ever seen was the Officer's graduation parade at CTC Gagetown.  They'd be on the parade square in front of the Battle Mall in August for a solid week, mounted and dismounted.  And that grad parade was usually extremely impressive.

Longest I saw was a month long practice for the Queen's visit to Halifax in the mid 80's that was a changing of colours parade.  They practiced every day from early (8 or 9) until 2200h.

BMI absolutely was a total farce.  Total butterballs just passing while body builders were registered as obese and had to see a MO for the pinch test and certification that they were good.

There are many instances where the dress regs are not adhered to or enforced even by those that think they are strict about it. Go to a function where the dress is civvies and as a male wear an earing.  Probably wouldn't take long for someone to say something about it not allowed iaw dress regs.  Look around though and see how many females are dressed iaw with those same regs - lots of makeup, big earrings, long fake nails, hair, etc.  Before the beardgen came out how many were shaving every weekend or when on leave? The reg didn't say you only had to shave on days you worked.

Drill is certainly important, especially on basic as it does instill the team work and discipline.  Problem is when they want to throw everyone together at the last second to do a pomp and ceremony parade with no practice to take the rust off.  I have no delusion that we are all spending hours a week practicing drill on our own time to be sharp.

NDHQ generally didn't have locker rooms when I was there other than the "use while in the gym" ones.
 

Navy_Pete

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If there is a locker room, there are usually only temporary lockers.  They are meant for using while you are in the gym, so the # of lockers is based on the approx capacity of the gym.  There aren't usually assigned lockers, but if there are there is usually a wait list longer than a posting cycle.

The workplace 2.0 cubicle layout usually comes with a small locker (that actually isn't deep enough for a standard hangar) but isn't ventilated so nothing will dry out at all. Pretty typical to see towels, shirts and shorts hanging around inside a cubicle.  Especially anyone that bikes to/from, as there is nothing worse then putting on damp spandex at the end of the day.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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I just looked at what RCN Chief said again:

"FORCE Tests -  On average, approximately 3500 RCN Pers are not tested annually.  Yes there are those on MELs, etc. But this is unacceptable. Kindly ensure all your pers are held accountable."
 

ballz

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Haggis said:
Yes, fellow lab rat, it was the InBody 570.  I found my printouts while cleaning out my files when I released.

That's the machine I used too.

Everyone in the CAF should get an InBody scan once a year... when they do their FORCE test or if they can't do their FORCE test, still get it done. And then have the data inputted into a data base. We could get soooo much valuable data relatively easily. Brigades can be compared to Brigades, PRes to RF, Divs to Divs, Units to Units, Army vs Navy vs RCAF, Patricias to Royals to Van doos...

Nothing changes culture better than shame. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnaVNAj7YLQ&t=12s

And then results over time can actually be tracked.... but like I said, no one cares about that, those in positions to make this kind of change are only there for two years, there is nothing in it for them to do something like this. They'd rather publish flashy BS that makes it into Facebook posts.
 

childs56

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Pusser said:
I agree that the CAF lacks a culture of fitness, but I don't agree with the solution I think you're implying.  There is nothing wrong with cheap bars, fatty foods and sugary drinks.  All things are fine in moderation, except smoking, that's just plain stupid. 

Where we lack a culture of fitness is really where we make it difficult for people to achieve and maintain a level of fitness.  We run the crap out of people on basic training, but then we stop.  Everybody should have a basic daily exercise routine.  There is a CANFORGEN that states personnel are to be given time during working hours to exercise, but many don't take advantage and there are still supervisors out there that fight it ("we're too busy" - BS! - NO ONE is too busy to train for a military requirement).  We have base parking committees that spend hours discussing parking issues, but the first time some extra space is needed, all the bicycle racks are removed.  In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles!  Without laundry or at least drying facilities, what are people supposed to do?  All the promotional material for the Carling campus brags about the bicycle parking, but there is still a dearth of change rooms and again, no place to hang wet gear.

All in all, we talk a good game about promoting individual fitness, but as a whole, we suck at supporting it, the Combat Arms perhaps excepted.
I know when I was fixing CF18's the Maintainers did not have time during the working day to take a hour to excercise. We barely had the manpower to keep the jets flying. I hear it is even worse now. Trying to convince the boss I need my 1 hour of fitness time everyday, because of that time your jet wont jet ready until tomorrow doesnt fly. Especially in operational units that actually work at their job every day. 
 

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CTD said:
I know when I was fixing CF18's the Maintainers did not have time during the working day to take a hour to excercise. We barely had the manpower to keep the jets flying. I hear it is even worse now. Trying to convince the boss I need my 1 hour of fitness time everyday, because of that time your jet wont jet ready until tomorrow doesnt fly. Especially in operational units that actually work at their job every day.
This is what the the RCAF 12 min fitness plan was developed for during the Cold War. I use this when short for time and don’t have the kit. Great workout. Now commonly known as HIIT.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

daftandbarmy

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If this is true, then we're not doing our troops, or our nation, any favours. And, sadly, I think it's pretty true...

"Truly then, it is killing men with kindness not to insist upon physical standards during training which will give them maximum fitness for the extraordinary stresses of campaigning in war."

S.L.A. Marshall, Men Against Fire: The Problem of Battle Command (1947)
 

Humphrey Bogart

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daftandbarmy said:
If this is true, then we're not doing our troops, or our nation, any favours. And, sadly, I think it's pretty true...

"Truly then, it is killing men with kindness not to insist upon physical standards during training which will give them maximum fitness for the extraordinary stresses of campaigning in war."

S.L.A. Marshall, Men Against Fire: The Problem of Battle Command (1947)

D&B, it is 100% true.  I don't think it's necessarily the institution though.  It's the society we live in today.

I have the opportunity right now to hang out with the brand new troops.  Almost none of them do any sort of fitness training on their own.  They sit in a big room all day and play on their phones.  There is a solid 10-15% who are physically active, the rest look like bags of milk. 

The number of "hard" men and women our society is producing is dwindling.
 

Infanteer

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Humphrey Bogart said:
The number of "hard" men and women our society is producing is dwindling.

Is there any veracity to that?  I remember seeing something written about the average recruit during the Second World War.  About half were from a city, were no good outdoors, and weren't the greatest physical specimens.

It's what you do with them after they enroll that counts....
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Infanteer said:
Is there any veracity to that?  I remember seeing something written about the average recruit during the Second World War.  About half were from a city, were no good outdoors, and weren't the greatest physical specimens.

It's what you do with them after they enroll that counts....

My little anecdote has no academic studies from the CAF to back it up because the military has done none which is sad because a fighting force should be studying the overall health and quality of its recruits.

There are plenty of academic studies Though involving children and lack of fitness leading to increased incidence of injury.  Lack of physical activity in children also leads to other problems like underdevelopment of gross motor skills and coordination, think running, jumping, kicking and swinging motions of which there are also plenty of studies to back this up. 

There is a limited window in a child's development to learn these skills and once that window passes they aren't going to get much better at it, no matter how much training you give them. 

Lack of fitness coupled with a high BMI also leads to lack of flexibility and mobility.  Lack of flexibility is a big factor in a lot of soft tissue injuries. 

I also coach rugby, injuries have been going up in that sport and we are having to change the way we train kids, especially around the contact portion of the game.  It's the same in all contact sports, kids only start checking in hockey when they are 16 or 17 now in most cases.  I have no doubt it will eventually be eliminated from the sport entirely.

In a lot of ways physical fitness has become like a class system in Canada.  The top 10% are in way better physical condition because they've leveraged the benefits of modern sports science; however, the middle 80% has been totally hollowed out because kids spend their evenings and weekends staring at a screen and playing fortnite instead of running around outside kicking or dribbling a ball. 

I saw this effect when I worked as staff at RMC, the top cadets were all phenonenal athletes, they were better than I was when I was a cadet because they were able to leverage the large amounts of money the school has put in to its fitness programs (due to trying to combat the hollowing out of that 80%).  The middle of the road Cadets though?  We had 300 Cadets at one point who couldn't meet the MINIMUM fitness standard. That's 1/4 of the Cadet population. 

Seems like it would be a good idea for CMP in conjunction with the CAF H Svcs and PSP to commission a long term study.  I'm certain there is a keen staff officer who would love to take it on  ;)
 

SupersonicMax

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I am for the removal of checking in kids sports.  When it is your child laying on the ice, suffering a concussion, you’ll understand.
 
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