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Islam-bashing film sparks fears of violence

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Niteshade

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From the Hamilton Spectator Website, with the usual disclaimers and such:


Islam-bashing film sparks fears of violence

March 28, 2008
The Associated Press
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (Mar 28, 2008)

A Dutch legislator released a film highly critical of Islam yesterday, setting verses of the Muslim holy book against a background of violent images from terrorist attacks.

Geert Wilders posted his 15-minute film on a website. Shortly afterward, Dutch television channels showed segments of the film and broadcast discussions by analysts on the possible impact of its release.

The Dutch government had warned Wilders that a film offensive to Muslims could spark violent protests in Islamic countries.

"The film equates Islam with violence. We reject this," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said in a televised reaction. Dutch television refused to broadcast the film, and Wilders had difficulty finding an Internet platform willing to host it.

The film shows statements from radical clerics and cited verses from the Koran interspersed with images of the Sept. 11, 2001, attack on the United States, the 2004 commuter train bombings in Spain and the murder later that year of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh on an Amsterdam street.

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The flick is up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCrCsTMokTU
WARNING: SOME GRAFFIC CONTENT. NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR KIDS.
A youtube account is required, and age verification requested.

My comments:

It's a pretty damning video with some solid points. Perhaps a bit extreme, but so are the people it portrays.

Nites
 

slowmode

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I saw this video the day it came out and let me tell you is it ever wrong about Islam.

  How do I know its ever so wrong about Islam? Well i'm Muslim. But in my honest belief this man should be allowed to air this video, I may not agree with what this man says or shows but I will fight for the right for him to say it. People in the Muslim world have to understand that theres Freedom of Speech. People are allowed to say what they want as long as its not hatefull of truly disgusting.

  This video that was created only shows a small minority of Islamic society and sadly enough it does not show the true Majority that just want peace. It only takes a few bad apples to taint the image of the rest. But anyway this is just my opinoin, as a Muslim I believe people should have the right to air what they want. Freedom of Speech is something that everyone should have, no matter where you live.
 

Niteshade

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I concur that the terrorist population represents an extreme minority of the Muslim population. I acknowledge that those people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah is a very very very minuscule percentage.

However, when was the last time a Christian built a  car bomb, suicide bombed themselves, and took out a pile of civilians in their own homeland? How about a Hindu? How about a Jew? The video attacks that the belief that the bulk of suicide bombs in the past 5 years are done by terrorists, in the name of Islam.

I agree that the film maker is entitled to his right to free speech. However, this video I do not believe is about free speech. I believe he is directly attacking the Koran, and clearly showing the portion's that dictate that it is acceptable/encourageed to descriminate/kill people of other faith's. It effectively is showing that the Koran is a recruiting manual for terrorists and justifies killing people of other religion's.

It does offer one redeeming thing though:  It further (and clearly) states it is a muslim's job to tear out the pages in the book that dictate these actions.

Like I said, it is not about free speech. it is more about freedom of religion, in the charter's sence, but also the freedom to make change to religion.

Food for thought.

Nites

 

slowmode

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Niteshade said:
I concur that the terrorist population represents an extreme minority of the Muslim population. I acknowledge that those people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah is a very very very minuscule percentage.

However, when was the last time a Christian built a  car bomb, suicide bombed themselves, and took out a pile of civilians in their own homeland? How about a Hindu? How about a Jew? The video attacks that the belief that the bulk of suicide bombs in the past 5 years are done by terrorists, in the name of Islam.

I agree that the film maker is entitled to his right to free speech. However, this video I do not believe is about free speech. I believe he is directly attacking the Koran, and clearly showing the portion's that dictate that it is acceptable/encourageed to descriminate/kill people of other faith's. It effectively is showing that the Koran is a recruiting manual for terrorists and justifies killing people of other religion's.

It does offer one redeeming thing though:  It further (and clearly) states it is a muslim's job to tear out the pages in the book that dictate these actions.

Like I said, it is not about free speech. it is more about freedom of religion, in the charter's sence, but also the freedom to make change to religion.

Food for thought.

Nites

There are over 1billion muslims on this planet. Yes I believe its a small minority that are committing Terrorist acts. Should they even be called muslims? No I dont think so , there not muslims, there savages.
 

Sythen

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A small percentage are actually committing the acts, but wonder what the percent that supports it? Wonder how many sit in Mosques every week, listening to hate speech and nodding their head as they are told how it is not only ok, but sanctioned by God to kill anyone not of their religion? How many donate millions of dollars each year to groups they know or even suspect are just fronts for the people who are doing these acts?

In all honesty, I am pretty sure the minority are those who sincerely speak out against these acts and try to enact change.
 

Future Prodigy

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Niteshade said:
However, when was the last time a Christian built a  car bomb, suicide bombed themselves, and took out a pile of civilians in their own homeland? How about a Hindu? How about a Jew? The video attacks that the belief that the bulk of suicide bombs in the past 5 years are done by terrorists, in the name of Islam.

Are you being rhetorical? Cause I can answer that - especially Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and Christians! This notion that Christians are innocent, peace, loving people is just as much a generalization as the islmao-phobic one that states they are terrorists. The bible is just as rife with violent acts as the Koran.

The problem with so called freedom of speech is it infringes on other important rights. This sort of video only perpetuates societal, misinformed, beliefs. Look at all the atrocities of history.. we can learn from them that normal, good meaning people, are able to be swayed through propaganda to commit some of the worst crimes in history. The freedom of speech argument could have been used by the propaganda espouser's. Its a dangerous line to walk i know (for where does censorship then end), but this point needs to be considered as well.
 

Sythen

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Future Prodigy said:
Are you being rhetorical? Cause I can answer that - especially Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and Christians! This notion that Christians are innocent, peace, loving people is just as much a generalization as the islmao-phobic one that states they are terrorists. The bible is just as rife with violent acts as the Koran.

Name me a good book that isn't full of violence and killing? The difference is, tell me where in the Bible it says for us to kill those not of our faith?
 

aegishjalmar

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Niteshade said:
I concur that the terrorist population represents an extreme minority of the Muslim population. I acknowledge that those people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah is a very very very minuscule percentage.

However, when was the last time a Christian built a  car bomb, suicide bombed themselves, and took out a pile of civilians in their own homeland? How about a Hindu? How about a Jew? The video attacks that the belief that the bulk of suicide bombs in the past 5 years are done by terrorists, in the name of Islam.

I agree that the film maker is entitled to his right to free speech. However, this video I do not believe is about free speech. I believe he is directly attacking the Koran, and clearly showing the portion's that dictate that it is acceptable/encourageed to descriminate/kill people of other faith's. It effectively is showing that the Koran is a recruiting manual for terrorists and justifies killing people of other religion's.

It does offer one redeeming thing though:  It further (and clearly) states it is a muslim's job to tear out the pages in the book that dictate these actions.

Like I said, it is not about free speech. it is more about freedom of religion, in the charter's sence, but also the freedom to make change to religion.

Food for thought.

Nites

To add my 00.02 or rather to just argue your point. Jewish Defense League? This is a direct quote from Washington Report on Middle East Affairs "For more than a decade, the Jewish Defense League (JDL) has been one of the most active terrorist groups in the United States....Since 1968, JDL operations have killed 7 persons and wounded at least 22". Army of God? This is a domestic American terrorist organization which has murdered, fire-bombed buildings and even gone as far as sending anthrax threats via mail. Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam? This is a Hindu terrorist group which has conducted a civil war since the 1970s and have repeatedly used suicide style attacks against civilian and military/government targets.

Just thought I would bring some of these points to light, as I detect a hint of Islamophobia in that post, sir.

**EDIT: Army of God is a Extremist CHRISTIAN terrorist group.
 

Future Prodigy

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For example, Deuteronomy 20 contains Yahweh's instructions about war. If a city does not accept Israel's offer of peace and open its gates, then "when the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it" (verse13). With regard to other cities, the command is (verse 16), "Do not leave anything that breathes."

You probably also recall that the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, and then the Israelites "destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, and donkeys" (Joshua 6:21). This certainly seems brutal and vindictive, doesn't it? Or consider Joshua 11:20, "For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses."

After creating a dichotomy between Israel and Egypt...“At midnight the Lord struck down all the first born in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh. to the firstborn of the prisoner in the dungeon and the firstborn of all livestock as well." [Exodus 12:29]... then after the exodus the Lord commands all the Canaanites to be slaughtered.

There are tons of others but if you are 'really asking' then I will be glad to debate this further with you... the point being, with regards to these passages, is that they were used/are used to justify conquest of ‘heathen’ lands, genocides and establishment of settler states. The problem with Christianity and Judaism is its border creation... through a us versus them mentality... which then allows for the actions of horrible crimes. In a sense you 'could' argue it is not as explicit as the Koran, but you can not escape the realities of history and hermeneutical approaches that have historically been employed in regards to these passages. Every western religious hate crime has started via a border creation, which is divinely ordained in both the NT and OT.
 

Future Prodigy

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theres also a good documentary out about christian terrorist groups - not Jesus camp!!!!! - but I can't seem to think of it right now, when it comes to mind I'll post it.
 

Future Prodigy

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awww... yes, army of God was one of them... i have my notes at school from a class i took called religion and violence... but unfortately I can't acces them for a couple days.

A good read, on the topic of the inherent tension in bible for the division and creation of boundaries... which serve as preconditions for violence... the other is something that needs to be excluded - is The Curse of Cain, by Cavanaugh, William T.
 

Future Prodigy

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The lrods resistance army in uganda is another interesting example of horrible hermeneutics: they have been noted for cutting off the hands, lips, breasts and noses of their victims. Leader Joseph Kony has claimed this is justified by the Bible, "If you pick up an arrow against us and we ended up cutting off the hand you used, who is to blame? You report us with your mouth, and we cut off your lips. Who is to blame? It is you! The Bible says that if your hand, eye or mouth is at fault, it should be cut off."
 

aegishjalmar

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Future Prodigy said:
The lrods resistance army in uganda is another interesting example of horrible hermeneutics: they have been noted for cutting off the hands, lips, breasts and noses of their victims. Leader Joseph Kony has claimed this is justified by the Bible, "If you pick up an arrow against us and we ended up cutting off the hand you used, who is to blame? You report us with your mouth, and we cut off your lips. Who is to blame? It is you! The Bible says that if your hand, eye or mouth is at fault, it should be cut off."

I can't believed I missed mentioning those guys.
 

Niteshade

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aegishjalmar said:
To add my 00.02 or rather to just argue your point. Jewish Defense League? This is a direct quote from Washington Report on Middle East Affairs "For more than a decade, the Jewish Defense League (JDL) has been one of the most active terrorist groups in the United States....Since 1968, JDL operations have killed 7 persons and wounded at least 22". Army of God? This is a domestic American terrorist organization which has murdered, fire-bombed buildings and even gone as far as sending anthrax threats via mail. Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam? This is a Hindu terrorist group which has conducted a civil war since the 1970s and have repeatedly used suicide style attacks against civilian and military/government targets.

Just thought I would bring some of these points to light, as I detect a hint of Islamophobia in that post, sir.

**EDIT: Army of God is a Extremist CHRISTIAN terrorist group.

Good points. I honestly did not know.

Watch that islamaphobia hint... I don't discriminate. I am religionaphobia. I have equal disdain for all religion. (agnostic/skeptic)

<editied for PC content>
 

Future Prodigy

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Niteshade said:
Good points. I honestly did not know.

Watch that islamaphobia hint... I don't discriminate. I am religionaphobia. I have equal disdain for all religion. (agnostic/skeptic)

<editied for PC content>

Just be careful to not fall into the pitfall of of becoming so comfortable with your position so as to ignore the realities of the crimes committed in the name of secular goals... statistics have stated that more deaths have resulted in the name of secularism than religion... and thats only taking into account this last century. I think you should change your position to a humanaphobia - regardless of creed, faith, or nationality.
 

aegishjalmar

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Niteshade said:
Good points. I honestly did not know.

Watch that islamaphobia hint... I don't discriminate. I am religionaphobia. I have equal disdain for all religion. (agnostic/skeptic)

<editied for PC content>

Then I would watch what you write, as it can be easily misinterpreted and taken the wrong way. Also, as an agnostic, you really shouldn't be commenting on others beliefs now should you? Your particular stance on religion does not make you impartial or un-biased, it makes you ill-informed, sir.
 

Niteshade

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I think you need to watch what you write sir.

Re-read my posts, and you will find my discussion is about the film and what it portray's. I do not ADD more information

In fact, I will break down my own post for you.

Niteshade said:
I concur that the terrorist population represents an extreme minority of the Muslim population. I acknowledge that those people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah is a very very very minuscule percentage.
No harm here. I comment that the portion of terrorists vs. muslim is minuscule.

Niteshade said:
However, when was the last time a Christian built a  car bomb, suicide bombed themselves, and took out a pile of civilians in their own homeland? How about a Hindu? How about a Jew? The video attacks that the belief that the bulk of suicide bombs in the past 5 years are done by terrorists, in the name of Islam.
A legitimate question I asked. I also acknowledge later in this thread that I was unaware of these other groups. I stand corrected.

Niteshade said:
I agree that the film maker is entitled to his right to free speech. However, this video I do not believe is about free speech. I believe he is directly attacking the Koran, and clearly showing the portion's that dictate that it is acceptable/encouraged to discriminate/kill people of other faith's. It effectively is showing that the Koran is a recruiting manual for terrorists and justifies killing people of other religion's.
I am discussing the video specifically. Each sentence starts with "the film maker", "i believe he", "it  [the film] effectively". Do not fault me for the film-marker's opinion's or projections.

Niteshade said:
It does offer one redeeming thing though:  It further (and clearly) states it is a Muslim's job to tear out the pages in the book that dictate these actions.
Again about the film. I am commenting about a specific scene or statement.

Niteshade said:
Like I said, it is not about free speech. it is more about freedom of religion, in the charter's sence, but also the freedom to make change to religion.

Food for thought.
No damage or islamaphobism (new word!) in this paragraph.

aegishjalmar said:
Also, As an agnostic, you really shouldn't be commenting on others beliefs now should you?
So because I am agnostic, I am not allowed to discuss religion? Are you serious? I didn't know that my right to freedom of speech was being restricted because of my religious belief's (or lack thereof).

aegishjalmar said:
Your particular stance on religion does not make you impartial or un-biased, it makes you ill-informed, sir.
Good way to slip an insult in there. Thanks. I think I mentioned previously in the thread I apologized for not knowing of these other groups. So this was unwarranted.

SIR.

Nites
<edited for grammar>
 

Future Prodigy

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now, now ... no fighting... he probably meant as someone outside a faith tradition you have no real 'authority,' per say, to be commenting critically on it. The agnostic comment was a bit of a low blow, but to be fair the majority of self proclaimed agnostics i have met have fit the category he has drawn. However, some of the most intellectual professors i have at school are agnostics or atheists and have good, well thought out reasons for being so - so, i will not make any blanket statements. My above remarks remain the same nonetheless!
 

Fishbone Jones

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If an agnostic wishes to comment on religion, it's no one's business. No more than Muslims commenting on Christians, or visa versa.

As for the rest, you all want to watch how you come across here, and stop with the insults and innuendo.

This thread is going to be watched very carefully, and any smart asses are going to get bounced.

Follow the guidelines and have a meaningful discussion. If you can't do that, stay away from it.

Milnet.ca Staff
 

NL_engineer

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Niteshade said:
However, when was the last time a Christian built a  car bomb, suicide bombed themselves, and took out a pile of civilians in their own homeland? How about a Hindu? How about a Jew? The video attacks that the belief that the bulk of suicide bombs in the past 5 years are done by terrorists, in the name of Islam.

Well the IRA used to love setting of car bombs, in there homeland (just the first group that came to mind).  I think you should do some research before you post next time.


Yes Christianity is a loving Religion  ::) Thats why the Protestant's and the Catholics have been battling it out since Henry the 8th's time  ::)

 
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