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References Superthread [Merged]

BeyondTheNow

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OzzyA said:
Hello everyone,

Since the reference instructions state the following, I have a few issues:

"Members of your family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references.
Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known you for at least the last five (5) continuous years."

I have spent three years studying in Europe and cannot adequately provide sources for the past three years. I had no relationship with my professors, and have not worked in those three years. I can try to find my high school vice-principal for my reference from four to five years back, however, I cannot proceed without filling in these three years. I've thought long and hard and cannot think of a single prof that knows my name (I was a quiet one in class that never spoke).

Are my chances of entering the Forces nill now that I've got virtually no references for that period of time?

Note: References must be:

a. Educational references: these persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors, or trainers;
b. Professional references: these persons are former or current supervisors, managers, foremen, advisors, or employers; or
c. Personal references: these persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, or community leader.

I used references that didn't exactly fit into those criteria, but they were still accepted.

There are answers earlier in this thread and there should also be some in the link below to help you along.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/106340.0
 

FlyLikeAnEagle

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Bonjourno.

So, i talked to my PO2 today and she said that my application was in the hands of the MCC (Military Career Counselor) and should know fairly soon. They talked to my references (one of them was on vacation when they called but haven't called him back *she said that the other 3 references could've been suffice enough to vouch for me **one told me that he gave me a good recommendation***) and all...so I'm curious...does it sound promising or what? Is the MCC's "okay, check +, 👍 really the last step?

Any feedback would be beasts.
FLAE
 

BeyondTheNow

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FlyLikeAnEagle said:
Bonjourno.

So, i talked to my PO2 today and she said that my application was in the hands of the MCC (Military Career Counselor) and should know fairly soon. They talked to my references (one of them was on vacation when they called but haven't called him back *she said that the other 3 references could've been suffice enough to vouch for me **one told me that he gave me a good recommendation***) and all...so I'm curious...does it sound promising or what? Is the MCC's "okay, check +, 👍 really the last step?

Any feedback would be beasts.
FLAE

"Beasts?" I guess I'm getting too old to keep up with the latest 'hip' lingo circulating these days...

Using professional language and tone when posting/seeking answers can go a long way on this site.

I'll leave it up to a user specializing in Recruiting to see if they'd like to offer their opinion.
 

da1root

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FlyLikeAnEagle said:
Bonjourno.

So, i talked to my PO2 today and she said that my application was in the hands of the MCC (Military Career Counselor) and should know fairly soon. They talked to my references (one of them was on vacation when they called but haven't called him back *she said that the other 3 references could've been suffice enough to vouch for me **one told me that he gave me a good recommendation***) and all...so I'm curious...does it sound promising or what? Is the MCC's "okay, check +, 👍 really the last step?

Any feedback would be beasts.
FLAE

In most cases the Reliability Check is the last step prior to making it to "Ready for Competition List"; however if you have medical issues outstanding than the last step could be the RMO.  Everyone's file is slightly different so your best bet is to speak with your Recruiter/File Manager to find out if you are being placed into the "Ready for Competition List".

While there are users on here who have extensive Recruiting knowledge, the best source of information on your file is always your recruiting centre.
 

EpicBeardedMan

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They were really quick to contact my references, they've already finished my reference check but I have my medical tomorrow and my interview got bumped to monday due to a scheduling error. One less thing to worry about I guess.
 

Northstar86

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John Kanaka said:
:mad: Beware of third party company (Mintz Global Screening, formerly Garda) and their bogus reference checks :mad:

My application file, although entirely completed, has been sitting on my MCC's desk for weeks now because Mintz Global Screening allegedly failed to contact BOTH my employment references via phone AND email. As per the notes that they sent back to my CFRC, they mentioned that they also failed to contact me in an attempt to notify me about the matter.

For weeks I was going to my CFRC and the recruiters at the front desk were telling me that my file was complete and the only thing left to do was have the MCC sign off on it. Finally, I received a call on April 3rd from a senior file manager informing me about the situation. He told me that its not the first time this has happened and that he strongly believes the third party company is falsifying the reference checks in many cases.

Fortunately, he was kind enough to take the matter on personally and my MCC agreed to contact my employment references without sending my file back to Mintz. I was also told that the CAF recruitment agencies will no longer be using Mintz as of next year.

As a warning to the fellow hopeful recruits, keep a close eye on how your reference checks are being handled.

Mintz failed royally on my check too! Thank you for posting this, I have been extra diligent about getting updates from my recruiter because of your post!

Last week he replied saying that Mintz was unable to get a hold of my current employer, which was completely false. She called me as soon as she sent back their form after their phone call and told me all about it. They also said that they were unable to contact a former company I did contract work for, which after speaking with the employer I think may not be true either as he was adamant that they call back every number regardless if a voicemail is left.

So what Mintz wanted me to do was provide T4's or ROE's as proof of employment...maybe instead of them actually doing what they are paid for? I don't know, very frustrating on my end.

Also magically on Friday, two of my references that had not been contacted got a call.

Moral of the story; Follow up on a regular basis with you references and your recruiter!
 

da1root

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Hi Northstar, I'm going to be sending you a PM on here, please make sure to check your PM inbox.
 
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Good afternoon all,

New to the forum, look forward to taking a look through all of the advice on here. I suspect my situation may original, so I thought I would ask the opinion of a recruiter or experienced member.

I am heading to University in the fall as a mature student, full time. I have just applied to the reserves, and am excited about the opportunity to serve with the Canadian Forces in a part-time capacity during my 4 years in University. Hoping to transition into the regular force after school.

Anyway, my specific problem: I have a good deal of solid job experience, of which I have made great connections, excellent references, and am happy to have them listed on my employment verification. I made a mistake getting into my last job, having seen some warning signs of a bad employment situation, but hopped on the opportunity anyway as it gave me the chance to sign up as an apprentice. I worked for a two man company, and unfortunately both the owner and one employee were heavy drinkers, and drug users. Dealt with being in a van with either one on any given day for almost 8 months. Issues such as extreme road rage, yelling at customers, lack of hours - I had enough and spoke with the owner about my concern over my own personal safety. He said there was nothing he could do as he did not want to lose his only journeyman.

After much debate, I unfortunately had to leave due to concern over my own safety, and not wanting to be a part of any illegal activity. Both the owner and journeyman were extremely angry when I left, and I am concerned as I do not want this to reflect negatively upon me when the forces complete an employment verification. Can I request that they not contact this employer? I have years of other work experience listed with great people they could talk to, but I am so concerned about them talking to people like this.

Thank you in advanced for your help.

 

serenamorrow

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Hello,

In fear of treading the same path followed by many as I have not read the entire thread, seeking a clarification. I did my TSDI today. I met a recruiter before it to see if they can get my paperwork in order before the test, and then finished with different recruiter afterwards as I had to refill a form. First one did not comment about my references, and the second did, stating to find new ones I think solely because I mention friend/roommate along with another qualifier.

Re-reading the definitions/requirements, both in english and french, I thought the one's I provided is valid. Maybe should have writing the connection differently.

All three of them I included are friends to some degree, one a roommate and another ex-roommate. At the same time though, one has known me for over fifteen years in different capacities, including being co-board of directors before of the sport organization we are still  presently members. The second are a friend of my brothers and in turn acquaintance friend to me while being an ex-roommate, spanning nearly six years, yet also interacted with to some degrees professionally as they are co-head of their own company. Third is a present roommate yet also ex-coworker at past employment,  totally five plus years. They all can provide character and professional feedback, with at least two of them having acquired reliability security clearance at minimum (assumption base of their past/present occupations).

The recruiter suggested maybe a coach in my sport, in reference to discussing my long list of travelling, I find them more awkward and less reliable, not so much because of history, but all the ones I can rely on at least honest neutral work reference are not from canada, or do not know them long enough...also some possible bias towards the military. Teammates would be considered the same as friends/roommates I would think.

As I continue filtering through alternatives, and asking for their permission, thinking of re-categorize them better while replacing my roommate/excoworker with a coworker/lead from my last employment, yet who got layed off like me but couple of months later. I can check with some of my old work references, but I have not seen them in person about five years as they moved elsewhere after our work. Previous security references do not count either as either lost contact or have not seen them in last five years as well.

May not be really a question, more like thinking out loud and maybe confirmation if my thought process is good or not. I am planning to swing by the RC again tomorrow as I will downtown again for other an appointment, so will regardless ask for clarification while having some alternatives in hand.


 

da1root

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I have a friend of 15+ years that we started out as co-workers; so when I fill out a security form I put "past co-worker".
I also have a former supervisor who is a close friend of mine now, when filling out paperwork I put "Prior Supervisor". 

For Teammates; think of it this way - if you were never on the team would you be friends with them?  They are a teammate first, friend second.

Most questioning is going to be "Hi, how long have you known Applicant Bloggings for?" - "And how did you meet Applicant Bloggins?"
 

Cenibuk

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Good evening everyone,

I’ve had a number of issues with both my employer references (They can’t get in touch with 2 and they aren’t returning calls) as well I’ve had a number of personal references disqualified for a variety of reasons. For example I had one reference who was actually a town councillor of my hometown, and who I had known since I was 2, as he had used to be my barber before. My second reference was my Pastor, he called me and said that he had received a call and essentially said I would be a great addition to the Armed Forces, but CIS (was forwarded an email from CIS by my Case manager) stating that the town councillor was ineligible as he would technically be a family friend. They then said my pastor had refused to provide a reference, which goes against what I was told by him. Another reference I tried using was a former coworker who is is actually a Mcpl in the Armed Forces right now, was disqualified as well because they wanted a supervisor or teacher. All of this kind of goes against a lot of what I’ve been reading here and reddit about current members reference checks when they were applying. I am starting to run my list dry and I am really not sure what to do at this point as my case manager is also out of office until Feb 06, so I imagine this won’t be addressed for awhile.

If anyone could provide any insight or advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you!
 

jdem007

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Hey guys,

I have a quick question. My application was advancing until I hit a road block when they did the credit check. I did my medical. Everything is good. I was going to do my interview until I was told to settle my debts first. The MCC, I'm not sure if that was one, but he had all my files and told me he could not proceed. He told me I will receive a letter via mail and suggested to me to close the application and once I get everything in good condition to come back to talk to him and he will reopen the file. Now, my references have been contacted already. My question is, since the file is close if I reopen it and the application starts proceeding again, would they have to call my references again? I just want to make sure to let them know they might receive another call from the Army in case they think everything is good. Please let me know anyone.

Thanks,
 

LittleBlackDevil

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Cenibuk said:
Good evening everyone,

I've had a number of issues with both my employer references (They can't get in touch with 2 and they aren't returning calls) as well I've had a number of personal references disqualified for a variety of reasons. For example I had one reference who was actually a town councillor of my hometown, and who I had known since I was 2, as he had used to be my barber before. My second reference was my Pastor, he called me and said that he had received a call and essentially said I would be a great addition to the Armed Forces, but CIS (was forwarded an email from CIS by my Case manager) stating that the town councillor was ineligible as he would technically be a family friend. They then said my pastor had refused to provide a reference, which goes against what I was told by him. Another reference I tried using was a former coworker who is is actually a Mcpl in the Armed Forces right now, was disqualified as well because they wanted a supervisor or teacher. All of this kind of goes against a lot of what I've been reading here and reddit about current members reference checks when they were applying. I am starting to run my list dry and I am really not sure what to do at this point as my case manager is also out of office until Feb 06, so I imagine this won't be addressed for awhile.

If anyone could provide any insight or advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you!

I your post was a few weeks ago and your file manager was going to be back 4 February ... I'm wondering how the whole scenario eventually shook out (if it has)?

Re: CIS disqualifying one reference because they wanted a supervisor or teacher, I had a similar thing happen to me with CIS this week. I just spoke with my pastor after church this morning and he told me that CIS rejected him as a reference because he's not a "supervisor". I never saw anywhere on the application forms requiring that each and every one of my references had to be someone who's been a supervisor/teacher.

As someone who's been self employed for 10+ years I had a hard enough time finding anyone somewhat in supervision of me. As a lawyer, the closest I could get was the local judge who I appear in front of in court regularly, and a senior lawyer who mentored me when I was first getting into business for myself. After that I'm tapped out.

I'm going to call my file manager Monday to see what's what.

EDITED TO ADD: I double-checked the DND 4370-E in anticipation of the typical "Re-read the forms you filled out and the 100s of posts on this thread instead of asking stupid questions" post. The DND 4370-E says with regards to references:

"A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years of age or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair and adequate assessment about your personal character. Members of your family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references. Your references, either individually or combined, must have know you for at least the last five (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first). The references can be categorized as follows:

a. Educational references: these persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors, or trainers;
b. Professional references: these persons are former or current supervisors, managers, foremen, advisors, or employers; or
c. Personal references: these persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, or community leader.
"

I provided two professional references who checked out fine. Then I presented one personal reference, my pastor, who I've known for 6 years and is not a relative or a friend (he's my priest). So what am I missing? I am guessing that the person from CIS just misunderstood what the requirements were.
 

macarena

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LittleBlackDevil said:
(...)
As someone who's been self employed for 10+ years I had a hard enough time finding anyone somewhat in supervision of me. (...)

Hi, mates!
I am in a similar situation: I am in my actual job for already 5 years.
Then I had a lot of trouble to find supervisors from former jobs, since the period I have been in touch with them in the last 5 years, have not been continuous.
Since I enrolled to swim lessons, in order to pass the swim tests from the CAF, then I wonder if I can present my swim teacher as reference, given we only know each other for 1 month yet.

And about the fragment "Your references, either individually or combined, must have know you for at least the last five (5) continuous years".

Does it mean that I can present my swim teacher as reference, since the 1 month we know each other, when it will be added to the 5 years from one former supervisor, it will satisfy the constraint?
I've tried to read the equivalent fragment in the french formulary, but it didn't help to clarify this to me anyways.  :whistle:
 

LittleBlackDevil

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macarena said:
Hi, mates!
I am in a similar situation: I am in my actual job for already 5 years.
Then I had a lot of trouble to find supervisors from former jobs, since the period I have been in touch with them in the last 5 years, have not been continuous.
Since I enrolled to swim lessons, in order to pass the swim tests from the CAF, then I wonder if I can present my swim teacher as reference, given we only know each other for 1 month yet.

And about the fragment "Your references, either individually or combined, must have know you for at least the last five (5) continuous years".

I've read through so many threads that I can't remember where I found this (probably somewhere in this thread that dates back to 2003 so use this with caution), but I'm sure I've read that your three references between the three of them must add up to knowing you for the last five years. So I guess if you knew someone five years ago and lost contact two years ago they'd count so long as you have someone who can account for the most recent two years. That's how I understand it.

When I spoke to my file manager about my issue that I listed above, I didn't really get an answer ... she just said that someone was looking at what was received from CIS and they would decide whether the two references who checked out were enough, whether they'd send CIS back to interview my pastor, or whether I'd need a new reference. She said I could give them a new reference now or wait to hear back. I opted to hear back and it's been almost two weeks with no word so I'm going to call again next week for an update on the status of my file.

macarena said:
Does it mean that I can present my swim teacher as reference, since the 1 month we know each other, when it will be added to the 5 years from one former supervisor, it will satisfy the constraint?

A swim instructor who's only known you for one month may not be able "to provide a worthwhile, fair and adequate assessment about your personal character" just because they don't know you well enough. I suppose every situation is unique, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable giving a reference or asking for a reference from someone I've only known a month.
 

macarena

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LittleBlackDevil said:
(...) So I guess if you knew someone five years ago and lost contact two years ago they'd count so long as you have someone who can account for the most recent two years. That's how I understand it (...)

Thanks a lot, big fellow!
Your suggestion makes it much more clear for me.  :cdnsalute:
 

LittleBlackDevil

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I've scoured this thread and did not see this topic come up. Probably because it is a non-issue, but I want to be 100% sure and under current circumstances it takes 1-2 weeks to receive a reply from my file manager, so while I'm waiting (I asked her this question too), I wanted to bounce it off the good folk here.

I am wondering whether an American citizen (who lives in the US) can be a reference?

I note that DND 4370 says

"A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair, and adequate assessment about your personal character."


It does not specify that they need to be Canadian. But I was wondering if anyone has had a reference refused because they're not Canadian?

My family spends a fair bit of time in the U.S. under normal circumstances. I help run a summer boys camp at a church in the U.S. so I was considering using the priest who runs that camp as a reference, since CIS refused my local pastor as a valid reference because he's not a "supervisor".
 

jaysfan17

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LittleBlackDevil said:
I've scoured this thread and did not see this topic come up. Probably because it is a non-issue, but I want to be 100% sure and under current circumstances it takes 1-2 weeks to receive a reply from my file manager, so while I'm waiting (I asked her this question too), I wanted to bounce it off the good folk here.

I am wondering whether an American citizen (who lives in the US) can be a reference?

I note that DND 4370 says

"A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair, and adequate assessment about your personal character."


It does not specify that they need to be Canadian. But I was wondering if anyone has had a reference refused because they're not Canadian?

My family spends a fair bit of time in the U.S. under normal circumstances. I help run a summer boys camp at a church in the U.S. so I was considering using the priest who runs that camp as a reference, since CIS refused my local pastor as a valid reference because he's not a "supervisor".

Can’t see why not. Like you said it doesn’t specify what nationality your character reference can be, so go with it.  It would would be stupid if your reference had to be a specific nationality, imo.
 
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